Recommended reading for anyone interested in WTC events on 9-11
I just took delivery of "102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" by Jim Dwyer. I started it and as of last night was on page 47. It's really a very compelling read, and I can hardly contain my excitement to get back into the pages this evening when I get home. Run, don't walk, somewhere to buy this book if you are interested to know what happened inside the Towers that morning.
Some interesting tidbits I remember:
1. The remains of a man who was on or near the floors in the North Tower directly where the plane hit were found 5 blocks away from the tower. The force of the explosion blew him a distance 5 NY City Blocks from the explosion. Sure, he started from a very high point, but even still - the force of that explosion must have been massive. Can you imagine being someone walking along a city street and looking up and seeing a burned up dead guy coming down out of the sky? My God that's a morbid thought !! Parts of the plane landed in an intersection 4 blocks away also.
2. The last people to leave the Windows on the World restaurant alive ALMOST did not catch the elevator. One of the people in the elevator saw them rushing to catch it and HELD THE DOORS OPEN FOR THEM. What if he had not seen them, or had been in such a hurry that he was not compelled to hold it for them? They would be dust right now. Such is the fragility of life or death on that tragic day.
3. The 106th and 107th floors, 80 feet above the plane crash floors, were soon so smoky that the patrons of the restaurant were virtually overcome with smoke and had very little areas at all on either floor that were not smoke-covered. There was obviously a very LARGE LARGE fire burning below them to cause that situation.
4. Burning jet fuel reached (via elevator shafts) at least as far down as 4 levels below ground level in the North Tower. Most likely the source of the "explosions in the basement" talk that we have heard about.
So far every report of any fire or explosions reported either by phone from people who died or from people who survived and made it out have been a direct result of the plane crash and the jet fuel in the elevator shafts. I'll report more info tomorrow if I have anything new to me.
I just took delivery of "102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" by Jim Dwyer. I started it and as of last night was on page 47. It's really a very compelling read, and I can hardly contain my excitement to get back into the pages this evening when I get home. Run, don't walk, somewhere to buy this book if you are interested to know what happened inside the Towers that morning.
Some interesting tidbits I remember:
1. The remains of a man who was on or near the floors in the North Tower directly where the plane hit were found 5 blocks away from the tower. The force of the explosion blew him a distance 5 NY City Blocks from the explosion. Sure, he started from a very high point, but even still - the force of that explosion must have been massive. Can you imagine being someone walking along a city street and looking up and seeing a burned up dead guy coming down out of the sky? My God that's a morbid thought !! Parts of the plane landed in an intersection 4 blocks away also.
2. The last people to leave the Windows on the World restaurant alive ALMOST did not catch the elevator. One of the people in the elevator saw them rushing to catch it and HELD THE DOORS OPEN FOR THEM. What if he had not seen them, or had been in such a hurry that he was not compelled to hold it for them? They would be dust right now. Such is the fragility of life or death on that tragic day.
3. The 106th and 107th floors, 80 feet above the plane crash floors, were soon so smoky that the patrons of the restaurant were virtually overcome with smoke and had very little areas at all on either floor that were not smoke-covered. There was obviously a very LARGE LARGE fire burning below them to cause that situation.
4. Burning jet fuel reached (via elevator shafts) at least as far down as 4 levels below ground level in the North Tower. Most likely the source of the "explosions in the basement" talk that we have heard about.
So far every report of any fire or explosions reported either by phone from people who died or from people who survived and made it out have been a direct result of the plane crash and the jet fuel in the elevator shafts. I'll report more info tomorrow if I have anything new to me.
posted by Kanji at
10:25 AM
42 Comments:
Hey Larry, me again. Glad to see you are reading, I haven't read this book but the title does say all anyone should need to know. 102minutes... Less than two hours, it's a crying shame. But, we have worse things today, 600,000 people in a war that is finally admittedly not connected to this "terrorist" attack. What has our world come to? It's like we live under the presumption that two wrongs make a right. So another day passes with the crimson warmth still upon my hands.
By
Anonymous, at 2:49 PM
I forgot that I wanted to give my kudo's to Jim Dwyer, he is after all the man that finally got a ton of info released, though it had to be done through a lawsuit, sadly. But, he and his paper got it done, and that information is what did finally send me over the deepend.
By
Anonymous, at 2:56 PM
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/241/STORY1.html
By
Anonymous, at 3:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UntkKtyUKk&eurl=
By
Anonymous, at 3:21 PM
Here's all you need to read about the new study:
"A controversial new study estimates"
1. It's CONTROVERSIAL because it includes dead Iraqis who died FOR REASONS OTHER THAN THE WAR.
2. It's an ESTIMATE because 900 different organizations are trying to MANUALLY keep count.
And do you think all those deaths are the fault of the US military forces? Of course not.
This war would end TOMORROW if the "insurgents" who are "insurging" against, WHAT, exactly, again?
FREEDOM.
We are trying to hand them FREEDOM on a SILVER-PLATED platter and they are fighting us.
How STUPID is that?
By
Kanji, at 3:24 PM
You must not of watched the video I tried to get you to watch a long time ago. "Iraq for sale". Look it up, it's a good movie, and it's the troops saying this stuff, I don't think they're just making it up... and I've read about how they reached these numbers, and it's not by counting deathes at all, but by doing polls which I found strange myself, but I think you have to be pretty dense not to realize at least a 300,000 people have died because of this quagmire of a war.
You have to atleast accept that the war was based on false pretenses. It's a fact, get over it and move on.
By
Anonymous, at 9:09 PM
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13469
you are part of the 16% minority...
By
Anonymous, at 7:22 AM
Larry makes a post containing stories contradicting the conspiracy fantasists narratives, and the only response they can make is to try and change the subject.
Stay on topic Larry. Don't let their argumentative styles derail you.
By
Elmondohummus, at 6:27 AM
hey it's the db again! where have you been?
By
Anonymous, at 7:43 AM
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-King-George.wmv
By
Anonymous, at 7:44 AM
*shrugs*. Yet another Google scholar...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4199607.html
And:
"102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" by Jim Dwyer
Like I said... when challenged by substance, you guys dodge the topic by trying to change the subject. Typical.
By
Elmondohummus, at 9:48 PM
I've told you 9-11 is over, they got away with it, there is no point in talking about it, but they're still killing our troops and innocent civilians in iraq and afghanistan, that's something to talk about. Something that matters. Why do you hate our troops edmondohummus? Why do you hate the innocent children being slaughtered by this commercial carpet bombings? What did they steal you liberty, did they take your freedom of speech? Did they raise your gas prices? What have they done? How have they wronged you so that you feel just in their complete destruction? How do you go to sleep at night? Just with the vail of ignorance?
By
Anonymous, at 6:27 PM
I thought I'd share this with you, from our soldiers...
It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
By
Anonymous, at 6:35 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By
Elmondohummus, at 9:46 AM
"I've told you 9-11 is over, they got away with it, there is no point in talking about it"
In other words, you have no arguments and you're still not accepting the truth, so therefore you change the subject.
911 happened because terrorists flew planes into the WTC complex. There was no government conspiracy. There was no controlled demolition. Every false claim and canard that conspiracy fantasist bring up has been debunked. You cannot defend them. So you try arguing something else.
And then, rather than back up your argument with supported facts, you merely state assertions. You don't provide sources, you don't try to balance arguments. You merely shout out opinions and try to sway people with them. You don't attempt to provide perspectives or context for your arguments. You simply feel anger, then take a stance and spew opinion, illogic, and venom, and you think that somehow means you're speaking the truth?
Try arguing with facts and reason. Opinions are not facts, and insinuating that opinions are objective truth applying beyond the individual stating them is not reasoning. And BTW, stay on topic. The arguments about whether we should be in Iraq and Afghanistan have been covered in countless other sources; Larry’s here addresses the WTC 911 event and the conspiracy fantasies that surround it.
Anyway, on topic: What about the Popular Mechanic's debunking of the 9/11 fantasies? I notice you don't even try to address those claims, or Larry's here in this post. What about the Jim Dwyer’s book, and the stories that contradict the claims of controlled demolitions? Larry’s original post was about that book, and the witness statements building towards the narrative describing what fantasists disdainfully call the “official story” rather than the conspiracy fantasies. You want to try to address those facts sometime?
By
Elmondohummus, at 9:49 AM
FACT: IRAQ WAS NOT CONNECTED TO TERRORIST!
FACT: INTEL WAS MANIPULATED TO SUGGEST THAT IRAQ POSSESSED WMD
DEAL WITH THE FACTS EDMUND! Why do you hate your fellow Americans? Why do you hate freedom and justice? I just want to know why? What do you gain by supporting evil?
By
Anonymous, at 2:14 PM
WHY IS IRAQ SUCH A FAILURE?! Why don't you read the fucking paps edmunds, it's not a conspiracy theory, it's reality.
By
Anonymous, at 2:15 PM
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-22-voa13.cfm
Here are 554 stories about this massive failure. I guess you missed all of them? Not credible sources i'm sure... you fuckin sheeple are getting old you know...
By
Anonymous, at 2:17 PM
Fact: Terrorists flew jetliners into the WTC.
Fact: There were no explosives in the WTC.
Fact: There was no conspiracy by the US government to bring down the Twin Towers.
You're still avoiding confronting the truth.
By
Elmondohummus, at 8:07 PM
Everyone knows 9-11 was just a pretext for global war. How they did it, who did it, and why will be determined through history, it's pointless for us to argue about specific details, it's far too difficult to debate with idiots, from either side of the spectrum of opinion. So, if we just avoid the subject and talk about what we DO know we could be doing a lot more for our country and our people, this is where my concern resides. I don't care about "proving" 9-11 was an inside job, it just doesn't matter. I care about stopping up from destroying these poor peoples lives and tarnishing our once great name. We must stop these criminals in office, and I don't just mean Bush. I mean all of these criminals... Why don't we start with congressmen if the president is too much for you to accept? Do you read rolling stone? They name 10 that would be a great place for us to start...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12054520/the_10_worst_congressmen
Go now, and read it, see what these 10 men have done to screw you and me, and tell me why it's more important for us to discuss something we're both obviously never going to agree on, instead of something that's sitting right here in front of us in black and white? Tell me edmund0 why you think it's so important we all focus on a worthless cause?
By
Anonymous, at 11:11 AM
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0610f.asp
By
Anonymous, at 11:23 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/19/eveningnews/main2109747.shtml
By
Anonymous, at 8:31 PM
"Tell me edmund0 why you think it's so important we all focus on a worthless cause?"
Tell me, anon, why you continue to dance around the truth?
Fact: Terrorists flew jetliners into the WTC.
Fact: There were no explosives in the WTC.
Fact: There was no conspiracy by the US government to bring down the Twin Towers.
You still continue to avoid confronting the truth. It doesn't matter what you think of our politicians; I can't stand them either. It doesn't matter what you think of what they're doing; I don't like many of the policies either. What matters is that you have a worldview based on untruths and outright lies. 9/11 was done by terrorists, not the US government. The proof is there. Arguments to the contrary have been disproved. You are not acknowledging that. That is your problem. You are refusing to acknowledge truth. That is the entire crux of your problem. You will not acknowledge truth.
Truth is the issue, anon. That includes the truth that 9/11 was committed by terrorists, and that the government did not bring down the WTC.
By
Elmondohummus, at 10:19 AM
Edmundo, I'll try to enlighten you, not that your worth the time, but maybe someone who is will come across this however unlikely.
9-11 Has yet to be proven one way or another. While the physical destruction of the buildings is a key part of the overall event it's merely one untruth in a vast tapestry of lies. Regardless of what you want to consider factual information, this nation has had and continues to have an intercept procedure that DEMANDS these type of planes be intercepted in 10 mins, they flew around for HOURS unobstructed, you'd have to be a babbling idiot to not understand the graveness this portrays. That's the only FACT that matters, somewhere someone obstructed any real responce to this "terrorist" attack. But, again it doesn't really matter, what matters is not what happened 5 years ago, what matters is what is happening in the world CURRENTLY. Right now the most if you look at the current actions of the United State, with the most sunny disposition, you have a corpate for profit war. I'm sorry edmundo, but that's what it is, we have no reason for being there, never did have one. So don't lay your liberating bs on me. We don't wage wars to liberate people because honestly we don't care about people overseas let alone care about our own people. If you actually believe this then you're more gullable that I would even think humanly possible. The facts, if you support this administration and this agenda are that you support torture, and imperialism. That is it, there is nothing else, you arn't saving America you arn't living the American Dream, if you support the destruction of Habeas Corpes you arn't even American. What's taking place in this country is a travesty to American Values. It's a mockery of the founding princibles of this country and it's a crying shame that you and people like you, largely the "christian" right support this kind of tyranny. I meet poeple everyday that call themselve good christians and still vehemently promote the death and destruction in iraq. It doesn't take a genius to understand that our actions are wrong, but it does take strength and courage to admit you've made or are making a mistake. Just watch the fucking movie I told you about a couple monthes ago, "cost of iraq" it's your money too, it's our nations money being thrown to large companies that arn't even providing a quality service to our young men and women. We owe it to our sons and daughters and our founding fathers not to accept this, and not to allow this to continue to happen. We as a people must stand up and rise against this growing sphere of evil, we must throw aside our tv generated opinions and look at these situtations objectively without preconcieved notions. It doesn't matter who you've supported your whole life, be it democrats or republicans. The subject is no longer 9-11 edmun0, not now, not while my friends are dying in a country that just wants us to leave. I'm sorry I refuse to argue with idiots about things that don't matter anymore, I understand now how to effect REAL change in this new era of the world that we are living, and I'll not waste my time arguing points that won't do anything to better the specfic problems that I feel ultimately need addressing by the private spectrum of the world's citizenship. If you can't understand it, then you are apparently not worth saving.
By
Anonymous, at 1:29 PM
"this nation has had and continues to have an intercept procedure that DEMANDS these type of planes be intercepted in 10 mins, they flew around for HOURS unobstructed, you'd have to be a babbling idiot to not understand the graveness this portrays."
You do not how or where things could go wrong, and are just assuming that they'd go right each and every time. Read this for a better understanding of what happened.
"So don't lay your liberating bs on me. We don't wage wars to liberate people because honestly we don't care about people overseas let alone care about our own people"
Incorrect assumption on your part. My prewar stance was that we don't need to go about unseating Saddam Hussein, because regardless of whether he got WMD's, he'd never be in a position to use them. The US would've fought a vicious; no holds barred war at that point and left Iraq a smoldering ruin.
You are making assumptions about me because you hold your worldview to be correct, valid, and objective. That's your problem. You know nothing about me, let alone what I think of the Iraq war. You're building an image of me based on your own opinion of folks who disagree with you. That's sad, lazy thinking.
"The facts, if you support this administration and this agenda are that you support torture, and imperialism."
Incorrect. I've said before, as I continue to say today: Torture is illegal and immoral. Try the accused, stand by the recognized standards for torture. Again, you make assumptions about me not based on reality. Like you do about 9/11.
"Just watch the fucking movie I told you about a couple monthes ago, "cost of iraq" it's your money too, it's our nations money being thrown to large companies that arn't even providing a quality service to our young men and women."
If you're worried about the US's budget, defense spending is at 6% of GDP, hardly crippling. If you're worried about the US not getting the right bang for its buck in "providing a quality service to our young men and women", sure, I can agree with that. But not because of the cynical, they're-out-to-screw-the-little-guy stance you have, but because I've seen more research from ex military members on what's wrong and needs to be fixed. For starters, if you want to know about improving the level of service military personnel get, read sites like the Soldiers for the Truth. Understand where things are going wrong, and don't just surrender your intellect to the comforting, easy to understand, but hardly reflecting of reality worldview that this "Military Industrial Complex" is at the heart of what's wrong. Understand what the problem is. Study the debate on Trophy vs. Quick Kill, and realize why the less expensive, supposedly already available system wasn't implemented. Study the debate on Dragon Skin vs. Interceptor, and understand where the problems lie in the acquisitions system. But don't take the lazy way out and just make noises about multinational corporations and plots for profit. Understand where things go wrong. And understand where they're fixable, and that they're fixable to begin with. Don't just make silly, juvenile references to revolution, like:
"We as a people must stand up and rise against this growing sphere of evil, we must throw aside our tv generated opinions and look at these situtations objectively without preconcieved notions."
Silly and juvenile way to try to express the concept of independent thought. Simply replacing "TV generated opinions" with internet generated ones is not critical thinking, yet your arguments mirror so many other sites I've seen subscribing to silly, impossible notions. Like the ones about 9/11 being a government conspiracy. No proof, just allegation.
You should try analyzing what you see without preconceived notions. But, your post above shows that you've not taken one step towards doing that.
"I'm sorry I refuse to argue with idiots about things that don't matter anymore, I understand now how to effect REAL change in this new era of the world that we are living, and I'll not waste my time arguing points that won't do anything to better the specific problems that I feel ultimately need addressing by the private spectrum of the world's citizenship. If you can't understand it, then you are apparently not worth saving."
That's my stance too. I get sick of people who continue to delude themselves as to what happened on 9/11. Larry's blog was obviously started in response to that as well. You people do not know how to investigate. You people do not know how to evaluate. You people do not know how to critically think. You ceaselessly parrot mistruths and misunderstandings - such as your comment about aerial intercept procedures - and build them up to a mishmash of incoherent rantings about this nation and your worldviews. And you continue to avoid confronting the truth: That 9/11 was not a government conspiracy.
You keep dodging and dodging, and trying to write off the fact that it doesn't matter, that the fact that your 9/11 conspiracy fantasy goes beyond the WTC collapse. No, for the sake of your stance, it does not. It cannot. If you cannot accept objective truths about phenomena such as the WTC collapse, and the impossibility of controlled demolition, and the ludicrous notions of government involvement in the demolition of the WTC, then why should anyone trust your observations about anything else? You've proven yourself to be susceptible to delusion. And at that point, you're just another nut who thinks he's a truth teller.
You must accept the truth about 9/11 to have any claim to rational thinking. And that truth includes 3 facts:
Terrorists flew jetliners into the WTC.
There were no explosives in the WTC.
There was no conspiracy by the US government to bring down the Twin Towers.
Without acceptance of those facts, nothing you say about the government will be based in truth.
By
Elmondohummus, at 2:28 PM
I'll admit I've made some assumptions about you, but we all do that just read your own post. But, I don't care about terrorist or government conspiracies. I just care about the physical make up of the buildings and the actual damage the sustained. I can't get over the fact that there where 80 stories of steel columns that had absolutely no damage and still managed to all fail with precise timing. It violates the physics of the world I reside in. How do you not see that? Just watch the videos of it, over and over and ask yourself how, a building that's steel beams on one side have been damaged collapse at all places, how does it not topple? How can it do it? After I had this problem I read their reports because I want to understand how and if you read these reports and your considering their findings, it just says it right there, right in the NIST report, as they give you these temps that these beams reached, not even close to hot enough for any weakening to take place. Not any hotter than a typical office fire really. Perhaps upon impact for five minutes but not nearly long enough to heat and weaken even a few of these beam let alone every single one of them. I just can't understand this singe point. How did the 47 central core columns which where 3'x2'X 4" box columns all fail at once? Even though the nist report clearly shows all of the beams that are damaged. which is like roughly 4-7 columns one each of 3-4 floors. that's like 25 damaged columns in each building. So that means there where roughly 3,700 of these columns below the impact where 20 some where damaged. It just doesn't seem possible not a collapse like I saw on that day, not from 20-30 beams, sure it wasn't safe and I think it very likely that floors could of collapsed and even whole chunks of the building collapse. But, I can't imagine how the whole thing could fail, when a vast majority of the building wasn't even effected, and I'm sure we all understand how the foundation of the building is the most important structurally. But, I don't man, I'm sorry about my assumptions of you. But, I don't need your idea of what rational thinking, It's almost sickening when I read you final comment, do you truly believe that everyone must believe what you say to be sane? I think you are going a bit far, at least without putting forth anything that really explains how those collapse where physically possible or explain what the stuff running out of the corner of the building is. These questions should still be answered. What about the people that say they where blown up in the basements? You act like you are so sure of the fact that there where no bombs, what evidence do you have that there weren't bombs? Why should anyone believe you? There is obviously enough evidence to stir interest... look at the internet. Look at how far it's spread, we have world leaders speaking of it at the UN, it's only been 5 years. How many books have been written on this subject? How many documentaries made? To say that your absolutely sure is almost irrational at this point.
The only think we truly know, is that we don't know the truth.
By
Anonymous, at 10:39 PM
You want the evidence there was no bombs? How many times do I have to say it:
1. The videos of the WTC towers falling show NO fire or flashes on any floors below the initial collapse point. How can there be explosions in an office floor which is COMPLETELY SURROUNDED by windows and there not be any fire coming out those windows?
2. The fact that there were no seismic records of explosions.
3. The fact that nine months of shipping debris from the site, no explosives evidence was found, when the whole site was exposed to THOUSANDS of workers, any on of whom could have whistle-blown anything they found.
By
Kanji, at 7:16 AM
Then why did all these firemen report seeing these flashes then? But, my question wasn't about bombs, it's about how these massive steel columns, all 3,000 or so of them, that make up just the central core. How could they possibly of all failed? It doesn't make any sense, you have a building with like .5% of it's mass damaged and 100% collapse, and we're talking about damage at the top of the building, not at the base of it, which would be what you need to take out in order to weaken a structure. No one to this day has been able to explain this to me, and if you'd like to earnestly try I'm more than willing to try and work with you. But, don't tell me these things are facts without some sort of evidence, or else it's just your word I'm taking, and I don't even know you and I've heard lots of people I don't know say there where bombs through out the buildings. I've listened to the 9-11 callers calling in explosions all through out the building. Why would people in the middle of a tragic event call in false reports? It's possible but just seems unlikely. What about the people I saw on these local news reports? What about the one fireman you see on the building that talks about how he wasn't expecting to see the destruction in the lobbies when he got there? What about the guy that reported on CNN that he dragged a man out of the lobby whom's skin was peeling off? All of these people were just making this stuff up in the spur of the moment? Have you guys honestly tried to look at this with an open mind to evidence? This is what I did, and this is where I've ended up believing. It's not that I want this, I'd love more than anything to believe that this was the result of an air plane flying into this building, but I can't and coupled with what this administration has done in the wake of 9-11 is even more incriminating.
By
Anonymous, at 9:41 AM
Ok, first of all, almost ALL of the things you mention have been debunked already.
1. "all these firemen reporting seeing flashes" is TWO firemen. And if you take their whole quotes, they both say "it could have been electrical fires or transformers blowing" and that's most likely where it is.
2. "all these people calling and reporting explosions" - we know that many many of the elevator shafts had fireballs of burning jet fuel going down them. We know that from published books, survivors of the elevator entrapments, etc. Elevator doors were blown off. Fire peels people's skin off - not explosions. An explosions would BLOW chunks of body parts off - fire peels skin off.
3. We know from eyewitness reports that elevator shaft fire reached at least 4 levels below ground level. That explains anything reported in the lower levels.
4. The explosion reports are VASTLY over-reported. I read the book "102 Minutes" as my blog indicates, and NONE of the people IN THE ELEVATORS or coming down the stairs reported any explosions other than the ones right in the few seconds after the planes hit the buildings. From the jet fuel.
5. There were many electrical transformers and large fuseboxes in the building. They can blow up from fire damage.
Another point - all those people who reported "hearing explosions?" Why are there ZERO PEOPLE who reported SEEING EXPLOSIONS? If there are 100 people who "heard something" and zero people who "saw something", were the bombs and the bomb damage invisible?
A lot of the damage in the lobbies was from glass that broke when the plane hit and the building swayed 6-8 feet in either direction. That tends to misshape a window frame, no?
Nothing has indicated without a doubt that there were any bombs. Read my whole blog - I talk extensively about bombs and things that can "sound like bombs" which are not bombs. I hear a "bomb" go off twice a week when our trash collector drops our metal dumpster right outside my window.
By
Kanji, at 10:00 AM
I'm sorry but it's outlandish to think that jet fuel traveled all the way down those towers. There was only 1 elevator that ran the full length, I think it's quite reasonable to think the jet fuel was consumed very quickly as both the nist report and the fema report state clearly.
But, again my main question is these core columns, how could they possibly have failed, no one ever wants to talk about the actual structure. Forget the bombs, just look at the towers, and how the damage was done to just one side, then entry point of the planes. Yet still it all collapsed right down, at the same time. This just doesn't make sense all that steel below the impact was perfectly fine, and most of it in the impact was unscathed, it just doesn't add up.
By
Anonymous, at 5:18 PM
Hey, outlandish sounding or not, we know for a fact fuel made it to the lobby at least because of that one guy in the 102 minutes book who was trapped in the elevator until about two minutes before the collapse had jet fuel leaking down from the ceiling of his elevator. He touched it and smelled it and knew it was fuel of some sort. He was in there for more than an hour and a half.
If it can be in HIS shaft, why not others that low?
By
Kanji, at 7:18 AM
see, you do it to. You trust one eye witness, while saying all the eye witnesses i've read about or seen in movies are not credible... what gives man? who is this one guy? Why is he a valid source and these firemen are not. This is why you and I can't find a real answer, and I believe that's the whole idea.
By
Anonymous, at 5:39 PM
No, I'm not "doing to too" whatever you are referring to.
I think the "firemen" you are talking about are the ones who "heard explosions?" I have already explained in my blog that "hearing something you think is a bomb does NOT mean it was a bomb."
The guy in the elevator was not "imagining" that he smelled and saw and touched jet fuel running into his elevator.
That is not something you can make a mistake about.
It's definitely not the same as a fireman saying "I think I heard a bomb go off."
By
Kanji, at 7:09 AM
well in a few movies i've seen people saying they FELT the explosions as they where blown back up the stairs. I guess that would be like the guy in this book feeling the kerosene in that elevator.
By
Anonymous, at 2:14 AM
did this guy ever say which elevator he was in?
By
Anonymous, at 2:15 AM
I guess that's "no comment"?
By
Anonymous, at 5:59 PM
You mean on the "which elevator was he in?" question?
I don't remember - I'll try to remember to look it up in the book and get back. He was in an elevator which had other elevators near it because there were other trapped people in another elevator a wall or so away who communicated with him and got rescued before him.
By
Kanji, at 7:39 AM
jet fuel will burn up within seconds maybe minutes at that temp... how could it get to the basement??? you guys will believe anything
By
Anonymous, at 9:36 AM
The tanks severed into how many xx pieces when the jet hit the tower. Not all of it exploded on contact because a lot of it was "projectile vomited" down the elevator shafts.
By
Kanji, at 9:39 AM
You are right about the jet fuel in the basement. There was only one service elevator that went from the impact zones to the basement. So the fuel that came down in the other elevators obviously got out at the 20th floor and made their way around to a connecting elevator headed for the basement. Yeah, that's what happened....this 'intelligent' fuel made a conscious decision to head for another elevator.
By
Anonymous, at 8:24 PM
First off, great site; I'm always glad to see someone fighting for the truth to be heard. Second, thank you for your service; I'm a 1LT in the Army myself in the reserves (spent four years on active duty too), and I know how difficult serving your country is.
I'd like to offer some new material, if I may, that should give you a few more arguing points if you're still pursuing this. I came across a magazine article that offered a unique point of view on the four potential scenarios that could have happened on 9/11; all of the various theories out there can be lumped into one or the other of these scenarios. I can't find the link or I'd include it, but as a military intelligence officer and member of the Intelligence Community, I took these four scenarios, analyzed all the facts I knew of regarding the events of 9/11, and came up with which one I thought was the most likely.
1. 19 hijackers took control of four commercial jets and flew three of them into buildings symbolizing America's financial and military strength, and were only prevented from crashing the fourth into a symbol of government by the courageous actions of the passengers on board. In this scenario, there was little or no warning of the coming event.
My take: Extremely unlikely. The sole reason, however, is not that 19 hijackers couldn't do this, but instead in the fact that there is a ton of documentation that there were warnings leading up to 9/11. I just can't see this one being at all likely in the face of that.
2. The same scenario as above happened, only instead of little or no warning, there were warnings that were dismissed or ignored.
My take: Extremely likely. In fact, I'd call this the most likely scenario of the four. Historically speaking, America is an arrogant country. Up until the events of 9/11, the worst thing that happened on our soil from outside forces was Pearl Harbor, and we proceeded to kick the German's and Japanese asses so thoroughly that we established ourselves as the biggest badasses on the face of the planet. Countries the world over began turning to us to fix their problems. That is a recipe for breeding arrogance. In addition, we were an extremely complacent nation. Throughout American history we have conquered enemy forces on our own soil, from the Revolutionary War onward. We suffered setbacks, yes, but ultimately we prevailed (the Civil War being the notable exception, but which also cannot really be used for the sole reason that it was American fighting American, not America fighting a foreign power) and kicked the "bad guys" out; plus, since about the era of the Spanish/American war, there WERE no major wars fought on American soil (once again, the Civil War is the exception, but it also cannot be included for the reason outlined above). This is a recipe for breeding complacency. We suffered losses on foreign soil, but we always felt inviolate on our own soil, in part because of our history and also because our closest neighbors are countries nominally friendly to us and our policies. There is no large nation CLOSE BY that truly opposes us. In short, we were arrogant bastards who couldn't really conceive of something like 19 hijackers flying planes into buildings as a likely scenario. (Please note I said LIKELY; we never thought it was impossible, but if you look at Al Qaeda's MO up until 9/11, you see what? Explosive after explosive after explosive after explosive, and all hijackings up until 9/11 that were perpetrated by ANYONE were done with the sole purpose of gaining some form of political concession or release of a political prisoner. I fail to understand WHY CTers seem to think that the US government is automatically prepared for any scenario that can come up, when the majority of the time, we look for the MOST LIKELY course of action and prepare more for that than any other course of action, and if you examine the intelligence reports, not one of them puts forward the idea that Al Qaeda would hijack planes and fly them into buildings as a likely scenario. Hijack planes, yes; we thought they'd want to try to secure the release of "The Blind Sheikh" by taking hostages. Attack buildings, absolutely; the bombings of the WTC in 1993 and the embassies in Kenya and the other country (I'm sorry to say the name's slipped my mind), as well as Khobar Towers and the USS Cole sort of shout that out. But putting the two together was never considered a LIKELY happenstance, which was our downfall.)
3. The LIHOP, or Let It Happen On Purpose scenario. In other words, the Bush administration had warnings that 9/11 was about to happen, and consciously CHOSE to sit back and let it happen in order to somehow take advantage of it for political or monetary gain.
My take: It's possible, but not near as likely as the previous scenario. Politicians (and indeed, people in general) like to take the option that poses the least risk to them and their interests. The 9/11 "conspiracy" was fraught with risk, the most obvious being, what if someone squealed? The perpetrators would end up either looking like fools or would be lynched on the spot, and as you've said, they already had power (a Republican controlled Congress and a Republican president) and were already making money hand over fist as it was; what was the gain? And if there was any, was it worth the risk of possible exposure and/or being brought up on criminal charges? I rather doubt it.
4. The MIHOP, or Made It Happen On Purpose scenario. In other words, the Bush Administration consciously plotted the murder of over three thousand people for some nebulous purpose, and yet somehow managed to leave apparently obvious clues that, if your "eyes are open", you are able to see.
My take: Highly UNlikely. Not only is this even riskier than the previous scenario, the numbers of people it would require that would absolutely HAVE to be at least PARTIALLY aware of the conspiracy and be willing to play along with it numbers somewhere around 100,000! That's a gross estimate, but it's based off the following: the estimated 250 or so private, federal, and state agencies (who, on average, have at least 5,000 employees each) involved in the 9/11 cleanup and investigation (a friend involved in the investigation agreed with my estimate of nearly 60,000 people who actively participated in the investigation), the Bush Administration, the intelligence agencies, the media, the first responders, the independent investigators such as demolition experts, physicists, and structural engineers who examined the events of that day independently, and the hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw what happened and whom have yet to come forward and directly contradict the current theory (I said DIRECTLY contradict, as in, offer evidence of another theory, not just question it; hell, I question it to some extent, but solely because I think the current theory needs further study; but I have found nothing in my research that indicates anything drastically different from the current theory). Even granting me that gross estimate and knowing I could be off by several thousand people (possibly as high as twenty thousand) in one direction or another, that still leaves FAR too many people who would have to be at LEAST partially aware of the conspiracy and agree to keep silent. By definition, conspiracies MUST be small, or they cannot possibly succeed, because there is no way to control THAT many people 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, for nearly SIX YEARS. It is, quite frankly, humanly impossible for THAT many people to mostly agree on something like this unless they all feel there is enough evidence to support it.
At any rate, good job on the blog; from what I've read, you have a good handle on the evidence out there. I hope I offered something new to the table.
-Sabrina
By
Anonymous, at 12:30 PM
Thanks much Sabrina for that well-thought-out comment.
You make an awful lot of sense, unlike many people who post here.
I'll agree that it is POSSIBLE that some warnings or signs might have been MISSED ON ACCIDENT.
Do I for one second think that anyone in charge had any clue that thousands of people would die if these things were not stopped? Absolutely not.
No normal American human would have stood by and allowed 3000+ innocent Americans to die.
By
Kanji, at 12:50 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home